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Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
37 minutes ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"I've seen one of those boxes before but with a skeleton inside "
38 minutes ago
Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"A kitty puzzlement......"
1 hour ago
Chris B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
1 hour ago
Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"I got one of those cat ones for Chadd, it gives him a laugh."
2 hours ago
Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Talking fast with the southern accent, it is a little difficult."
2 hours ago
Chris B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"That liberal redneck is too hard to follow, even with hearing aids!"
2 hours ago
Chris B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Funny, those boxes! I only knew the sort with a cat in it."
2 hours ago
Chris B commented on Hope's group Imagine No Organized Religion
"Thanks for posting, Stephen, he said it all."
2 hours ago
Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Such logic."
2 hours ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
3 hours ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Hope's group Imagine No Organized Religion
"WOTMQ: RMPS Demons Epilogue"
8 hours ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Liberal Redneck - Arkansas Governor Mad at Self"
11 hours ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"That is funny Loren and I want to own one of those boxes. "
13 hours ago
Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"That's funny!"
14 hours ago
Mrs.B commented on Hope's group Imagine No Organized Religion
"It's insulting."
14 hours ago
Mrs.B commented on Loren Miller's group Quote Of The Day
"And some of your governors demanding that our borders open!"
14 hours ago
Loren Miller commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"I don't know whether or not any of you have ever run onto the "Useless Box" idea,…"
14 hours ago
Stephen Brodie commented on Hope's group Imagine No Organized Religion
""I love the poorly educated." Probably one of the most heinous remarks I've ever…"
16 hours ago
Loren Miller commented on Hope's group Imagine No Organized Religion
"Let's be real here. For the most part, "Godly Wisdom" = BULLSHIT, plain and simple.…"
21 hours ago

We are a worldwide social network of freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and secular humanists.

...they [the Roman Catholic Church] for example thought that slavery was perfectly fine... absolutely okay, and then they didn't, and what is the point of the Catholic Church if it says, “oh well we couldn't know better because nobody else did”? [To the affirmative team] Then what are you for?!
-- Stephen Fry, answering a question during the 2009 Intelligence Squared debate, “Is the Catholic Church a force for good in the world?”

Of course, slavery was okay to the Church.  The concept isn’t just approved by the bible, its practices and usages are fully outlined in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25.  It’s also endorsed by their big boy, “J” in the New Testament – “Slaves, obey your masters…”  As the bible is the revealed and inerrant word of their god, any belief, action, or practice which has such rousing approval should be beyond question.

Yet not only has slavery as a practice been questioned, it has been proscribed and abandoned by the vast majority of the civilized world in the current day.  Worse, the RCC was well behind the curve as regards this massive change in attitude.  While encyclicals from Rome varied in their opinions regarding the topic, as late as 1866, representatives of Pope Pius IX expressed no condemnation of the sale or exchange of slaves, based in “divine law.”  Meantime, the United States had already very nearly torn itself apart in a Civil War whose primary point of argument was the issue of the ownership of people as property.  The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution, establishing the rights of African-Americans, were being proposed and would be ratified only a few years later, even as the Vatican was holding forth with a clearly opposing position.

Very well … how was it that, all at once, the Catholic Church decided that slavery was NOT okay?  Clearly, they were not taking their holy book as a primary source in making such a decision, as evinced by the above-cited biblical verses.  It’s dubious that any other reference in the Vatican’s considerable library would be anything like definitive in countering the root basis for the structure of their religion.  So what did it?

My own suspicion may be summed up in one word: “blowback,” the blowback of ordinary people whose personal moral senses were enraged at the idea of the treatment of certain human beings as something less than human.  Simple human decency, bolstered by considerable numbers, finally forced the hand of the Church.  One would think such a thing shouldn’t be necessary.  As the Church is supposed to be the foremost authority on matters moral and ethical, for them to be so badly out of step on an issue this critical speaks to a systemic failure on their part to assess, understand, and adjust their position.

Sadly, this state of affairs is not limited to slavery.  The status of women, of the LGBTQ community, of the aberrant behavior of their own priests with children, and too many other issues to count show the Church badly out of the mainstream of modern social thought.  The reason is tragically simple: their seemingly immutable attachment to a standard, expressed in a single book, which was written by men, frozen in time, and exempt from modification or evolution, and which cannot deal with the changes which humankind has undergone in the intervening years and decades and centuries.  Because of that dependence, any possibility of those who would represent Roman Catholicism of joining the rest of us in the 21st century is reduced to little or none.

In the light of that intransigence, one might well ask those of the denizens of Vatican City and its representatives around the world: “What ARE you for?”

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Comment was by Grinning Cat on May 30, 2021 at 7:04am

One of Victor Stenger's many arguments in God: The Failed Hypothesis that our universe, planet, biology, and society look exactly as could be expected without a god is that a powerful, knowing, benevolent god would have given useful moral guidance, at least to the adherents of the one true religion, or to their leaders. Instead we see ministers of all kinds behaving just as well as, and just as badly as, ordinary human beings put in positions of power and privilege.

Comment was by Loren Miller on May 26, 2021 at 7:55am

And it was Stephen Fry, Joan, who had the observational skill and the proper chutzpah to ask that question of his opponents.  I can't help but notice that they had no answer for him.

Comment was by Joan Denoo on May 26, 2021 at 1:25am

I just read this post again, Loren, and your words ring as true as a well-designed bell. "Then What Are You For? Exactly the right question. 

Comment was by Loren Miller on May 20, 2021 at 10:57pm

Unfortunately, Joan, were that god the god of the bible, it would be the same "capriciously malevolent bully" that Richard Dawkins described years ago in The God Delusion ... and I would have no reason whatsoever to support or serve such a despicable deity as that.

Comment was by Joan Denoo on May 20, 2021 at 8:06pm

As usual, Loren, your position clearly identifies the failure of religion to set a moral standard reveals its inauthenticity. If the bible was dictated by a god, it would set the standard for moral and ethical behavior. 

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