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Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Hahahahaha.....maybe shooting blanks?"
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"Joseph got busy only after he was told he was getting help"
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Chris B commented on Doone's group World History
"Great! I enjoyed the mosaics in Naples enormously and this is just as beautiful!"
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Mrs.B commented on Doone's group World History
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Chris B commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
"That explains a lot, thanks! Such a destruction!"
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Stephen Brodie commented on Doone's group World History
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Ian Mason commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
"Thanks, Joan.  I found this online."
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Loren Miller commented on Loren Miller's group Quote Of The Day
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dead jawa posted a blog post

Russell's Lighthouse

I think both theists and atheists don't realize the full ramifications of Russell's Teapot. I would…See More
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Joan Denoo commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
"@Ian,  here is an answer from " "CLIMATE PREDICTION CENTER/NCEP/NWS and the…"
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Mrs.B commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
"I swam in this lake years ago."
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Mrs.B commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
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Mrs.B commented on Loren Miller's group Quote Of The Day
"Good to see you, Joan."
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Joan Denoo commented on Loren Miller's group Quote Of The Day
"Thanks, Dan Baker, for your wisdom! And thanks, Loren, for your post. "The agnostic says,…"
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Mrs.B commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
"Hahaha.....sounds like Rick too."
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Mrs.B commented on Loren Miller's group Quote Of The Day
"And a good author."
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Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
" Mrs.B I don't know about Snore Dog but I've been told that's how I sound…"
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Stephen Brodie commented on Adriana's group Freethought and Funny Bones
" Mrs.B perhaps Joseph was an Incel"
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Mrs.B commented on Sydni Moser's group Coffee Break
"Heat Dome in  summer, & these Atmospheric Rivers are totally new terms to us."
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We are a worldwide social network of freethinkers, atheists, agnostics and secular humanists.


A democracy has to be a SECULAR State to ensure that laws passed by your parliament do not interfere with rights and obligations of one person or group of people within your society. The rights and obligations that are bestowed upon them by the society that they live in. These rights and the secular nature of your government is enshrined in your constitution.

So you think you live in a democracy do you?

A true a democracy is:-

Government of the people, by the people, for the people!

The people that you elect to govern you are your servants not your masters! Those that you elect to parliament are Public Servants, just as every one else that the “PEOPLE” through their Government employs, to teach, to police the laws and keep order in your society to defend your borders from criminals and aggressors, Etc.

People from all stratas of your society must be heard equally one strata has no more say than any other strata of your society. In other words the voices of the down and outs have equal weight as those that sit in the top strata of society.

Corporations and companies are not people they are a collection of people and as such have no legal standing other than what they are commercial entities.

Since there are many different religions and since it is an expression of beliefs that are held by people within that religion and not all the people within that society. Therefore religion cannot express any political opinion nor take part in the political system of a society. Only the members of a faith as individual members of their society can participate in the political system of their society. Furthermore religious bodies are subject to tax and the full consequences of crimes committed by their clergymen.

Since the officials elected to govern your society are also servants of the people. A compromise has to be made. Where their decisions are based on what the majority of the people in the constituent they represent think about the laws that are being proposed to be put before the house. They also have to take into consideration how the proposal will impact upon their constituents. Their own attitude towards the proposal as well.

These elected public servants when they stand for re-election when they are on the hustings do not promise that they will do this, this and this but can place proposals forward. They have to put up their previous term in office for scrutiny when they are standing for re-election along with what an unknown candidate has to show.

When they are standing as an unknown candidate or an office at a level they have not held before they have to show the general populace their traits and knowledge and what they believe will help them while in office and also they must give their own personal stance on matters that affect their society. They must also give to the electoral Office a detailed report on personal matters that may affect their voting while in office to prevent conflicts of interest and corruption. All this is open to public scrutiny.

Being well monied is not prerequisite to be a good public servant ( politician). But a good basic secular education, a trade, or a good bachelor degree from a college or university makes a better politician. A well monied person has the tendency to be out of touch with 75% of his constituents way of thinking,whereas the others mentioned tend to stay closer to the average person's, (if there is such a person as average.) way of thinking

While on the hustings they cannot personally disparage candidates running against them, unless they can come up with a suitable workable alternative to what those other candidates personally feel the way their society should be going by their proposals. Proposals are not promises but how they see a problem and a way to surmount that problem. Within a proposal there must also be shown the negative effects of that proposal, will have on their society.

The candidates proposals are proposals they fashion themselves not by the party machine. By that they talk to people, collect information about problems within their constituent and come up with a feasible plan, a proposal that addresses that particular problem.

I am well aware that political parties hold grass root meetings of members it is up to the person who desires to become an elected official to attended as many of these grass root meetings within the constituent they propose to stand for. This not only applies to the first time candidate but the elected member as well time permitting within their parliamentary duties. The electoral office these days can carry out the surveys within an electoral boundary to show what the people think on the issue within a proposal before parliament and give to the member of that electorate.

This way the your representative votes inline with the thinking of their constituents. Their own personal views and knowledge on the subject matter of the bill come to the fore when there is no clear consensus within their constituent. When they vote on a bill they must show their reasoning behind the way they voted.


You the people have also to learn to be more critical in your thinking about your every day life about what people, say about other people, the affairs of society that govern your life and what public servants say and do. You also have to learn that no-one is less nor more than yourself but you have to learn that everyone in your society is IMPORTANT. Even the people who are down and out on their luck.


You have to learn that Politicians are elected Public Servants and not your master!


A true Democracy, how it is governed and the departments created to help with the day to day running of the society is crystal clear to the general populace. The only areas that are not fully transparent are departments dealing with security of the society and the lands that the society occupy. These departments are more like translucent than transparent. But the treatment of the their personnel are some what more transparent. Though they cannot be publicly seen in the present but at suitable time intervals there is a releasing of information about the operations carried out by these bodies can be made public. The time intervals are selected so that the information released cannot be used to assess the present operation of that department.

A true democracy does not have super secret agencies that even the prime minister, premier or president know nothing about in other departments. These translucent departments are answerable to the premier and his deputy, prime minister and his deputy or president and his deputy and the equivalent leaders of all opposition parties in parliament.

The majority of people in a society do care what happens to other people in their society that through no real fault of their own have ended up in dire straits and in need. The old, the infirm in mind and body, those that find themselves without a job and the homeless.

In a true democracy the people empower their elected public servants to care for these people out of the taxes they pay to their government for the smooth running of their society.

The government in a true democracy will ensure that all people in its society have the same services no matter where they live geographically in that society. The government will step-in and fill the gaps where private enterprise is unwilling to provide services. Services such as health care, transport etc.

The government in a true democracy besides governing the society understands that there are three aspects of society which are not profitable in the short term but in the long term are very profitable for its society. They are education, medical services and the defence of the country.

The long term return for providing education comes in the form of innovations and new industrial enterprises that arise that help to increase the living standards of the society. While the return for providing medical services is returned by having a healthy populace which reduces the necessity for costly surgical procedures due to poor health service provision. Also industry has a work force that loses less time due to illnesses. Health services go from being reactive to proactive. Defence's return is a society that is secure and able to go on about its business without fear of being set into turmoil by invasion or repeated acts of terror on its soil. A secure society is a happy society.

A true democratic government also realises the benefits that both pure and practical scientific research gives to society so it must be carried out and goes ahead and sets up research centres.

These centres are set up so that the scientists can pursue scientific thought and ideas both of a pure nature and practical nature without interference from the CEO's of corporations and companies. This way the results of any controversial study are not interfered with from sources prejudiced towards the study or who have vested interest in the studies being carried out.

The government does not interfere with the establishment they are autonomous, but even though they are autonomous they are are accountable to the people and the government. These centres are not only funded by the government but funded by private industry as well as they become recipients of the fruit of that research. Though private enterprise cannot interfere with the research.

The government sets up these research centres so that they hold the intellectual property rights for all of your society. As the person or persons that created the intellectual property are members of your society so therefore the intellectual property belongs to their society not some corporation or company. Corporations and companies can apply for licences to produce technology based on the intellectual property.

The government does it this way to allow scientists to carry out their studies and experiments which they then write up in their papers to explain what they did and the results of their experimentation and their studies so that no knowledge is kept from the scientific community and society. Like the government no research is hidden away but must be transparent so there is no miscommunication between the scientific world and society in general.

This does not preclude private enterprise to set up their own research centres to improve their products but unlike the present situation they have to within five years release results of their research so that depending on the area of their research their findings can be verified. This will help reduce the amount of misinformation about technology and science.

Private enterprise in a true democracy is not unfettered but has to follow rules and regulations put in place by the people of your society. Self regulation does not work so therefore industries must have rules and regulations that are overseen by a independent body who also acts as an ombudsman so that people can have access to when they have a complaint about an industry.

The role of unions within a true democracy is to act on behalf of the members in wage negotiations. The unions work for their members but at the same time work with the employers to ensure that the company provides a work environment that is as safe as possible within the financial constraints that everyday business places on the company.

Unions also in concert with the employers to provide training for their members so that the employers have a steady pool of skilled tradespeople and skilled non-tradespeople to carry out the work done in each industry. The unions train the apprentices and trainees and find employment with an employer both while they are apprentices or trainee and when they become tradesman or craftsman or according to their qualifications for non-tradespeople.

Unions are also transparent so that corruption is easily exposed should it begin within the union.

Free enterprise under a true democracy is based on the knowledge that not only the world has finite resources but has also a finite population of consumers. Not a world of infinite resources and an infinite consumer population.


The market becomes a market lead by a necessary need consumption.


Free enterprise has controls placed upon it that their society thinks is appropriate for the carrying out of any enterprise within society.

These controls are emplaced to protect the consumer and the environment but the business environment is still a consumer lead market. But not a consume for the sake of consuming market but a consume for the sake of appropriate need consumption market.

In the manufacturing sector consumer products are designed and built to last at least ten years and also to be repaired using a modular design where a defective modular component is removed and replaced with a serviceable module. The defective module can be either repaired or broken down to its component parts and recycled.

New designs would come out about every five to six years to take advantage of progress made in technologies and material science. But this does not preclude the bringing out of modules for a piece of equipment that improves the operation of the equipment between design changes.

Take for instance the IBM clone desk top computers they are modular in design so that should the hard drive pack it in you just replace the hard drive. Or it could be any of the components that can be removed that packs it they are just replaced with a new component or a serviceable second hand component. Due to their design they can readily be up dated with out having to buy a completely new computer. The bios chipset can be updated to improve the computer's capabilities. Whilst laptops when a component in them decides to pack it in they have to be repaired which can be costly in which case it is easier to just buy a new laptop system.

In a true democracy the taxation system is based on fairness so that everyone pays taxes in line with what they earn the tax system could be flat or it could be incremental according to what the society desires with fairness in mind. There are no deductions allowed for any reason ( as business is a gamble ).

Taxation in a true democracy is a flat rate taxation system where personal income tax is set at one level and company tax at another but higher than personal income tax.

Everyone who works pays income no matter the amount. Companies pay the higher level to help with building and maintaining the infrastructure they rely on. In both cases at the end of the financial year a tax return is submitted to the tax office. No deductions are allowed what so ever the tax return just states the amount of income earned and the amount of taxes paid. The Tax office ensures that the correct amount of tax has been made and should the person/company that submitted the return has paid to little then issues a tax bill but should the submitter paid to much tax then the Tax office gives them a tax refund for the amount over paid.

The approximately 5% of people that have high to very high income tax would be set at a rate double that of company tax but are allowed deductions that directly relate to the acquisition of that income but these deductions cannot bring the rate down below the company tax rate plus the personal income tax rate. That is to say if the personal tax is 15% and the company tax is 25% then they cannot go below 40% tax level.

The only people that are tax exempt are those on a pension from any source even when they work less than 25% the hours of normal working person. Those receiving unemployment benefits have their tax portion deferred while they receive them but on the return to full employment has the employer deduct extra tax out from his pay till he pays the deferred taxes that accrued whilst unemployed.

In a true democracy there are three levels of government.

First level is the Federal Government.

That attends to the overall running of the country and the interaction with other countries of the World. It also provides the standards for education and health. Has control of the defence of the nation. It also has a police force that works in conjunction with the police forces of the states so that criminal activities can be more easily monitored and intercepted.

Administers the need for protection of the natural environment by the creation of national parks and reserves and natural resources, for transport through out the nation and the administration of ports and airports since they also run the customs and coast guard services.

The federal government is the only government that can impose personal income and company taxes. It can also impose goods and services tax.

At this level the laws are can be quite broad but at the same time quite tight but to allow the next level of government to close any perceived loop holes that may have been over looked in the federal law and to create laws that enhance federal laws. Federal law has precedent over the next two levels of government.

Second level is the State Government.

A state is a geographical portion of the country for better governance by allowing the people to have more say in the geographical area within which they live.

The state enacts laws that people within the state feel that is required in their state and to close loop holes that they feel are within federal laws.

The only taxes that the state government can impose are sales taxes and the like.

It administers to the needs of the state in education, transport, health services, police service, fire fighting services. Administers the needs for infrastructure and its maintenance such as water and sewerage treatment, electrical supply and distribution.

The third level is the Local Council.

A council area is a smaller geographical area that can only pass by-laws to help in maintaining a clean and civil society.

Local council administers, the building codes, maintenance of roads within the council area, the collection of household wastes, the running of public libraries, maintaining parks and recreational areas within the council area.

Local government can impose rates on the buildings and lands in its areas. It can charge fees for other services that it supplies to industries and people accessing those services.

These are some of my ideas and vision of how our political system should be. But I am a realist and realise that it will take a long while before we come anything close to a true democracy. 

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Replies to This Discussion

We are pack animals.
As such we are still under an ancient unwritten feudal law.

Democracy is a laudable effort to escape from our past and access modernity. Democracy is a sign of emerging maturity. But as it stands now, it is still a leadership-oriented model. Eventually, that too will come to pass.

Ultimately there'd be no government. 

A structure of civil servants to administer community programs under the scrutiny of virtual forums would do a fine job IMO. I'm pretty sure we'll be able to do away with the middlemen, and outgrow the representatives pyramid. You don't need them once you have built yourself a hive mind - which is what we're currently in the process of developing for ourselves.

Just saying. 

Have you ever read your parliament's  equivalent to the English and Australian Hansards Which are the actual written accounts of the sitting of the parliamentary houses? It shows the the bill that is to be considered by the house.

They are interesting reading and shows why it will be quite awhile before we get rid of representives. Mainly due to the need to write the bills so that when they come into law they have very little interpretative leeway.  

Well there is hope from two groups of homo sapiens that have no designated leaders and both have survived 60,000 years. The pygmies of west Africa and the Australian Aborigines. Both had no leader and everything is shared equally among the members of their people. 

But they both accepted everyone in their societies as being Important.

That's doable with local communities, neighborhoods, and these guys are the proof of that.
We need to figure something equivalent at the global scale.

Because we have to face it, this is what will eventually rule the world:

There is a hope for a real democracy everywhere in the world.


Yes! There is a hope for real democracies in this world but it is going to take a large paradigm  shift in our present day mind set for it to occur.

I agree with much of your outline. According to the ancient Greeks in a true democracy each adult citizen takes turns leading at the local level and participation was mandatory. They found it didn't work because many weren't suited for it. 

I don't like the idea of flat taxes because someone who only has a subsistence income shouldn't be required to pay as much (%) as someone making say $100K. I'd have to think about eliminating all tax deductions. You didn't mention property tax. The other day I saw a $5K crocodile suitcase advertisement. I think there should be a higher sales tax for luxury goods such as the $5,000 suitcase.

I think college, or trade schools should be part of a basic education thus taxpayer funded limited by some rules - for example someone getting barely passing grades shouldn't be allowed to progress at the college level.

I'd like to see campaigns only allow tax funded donations by eligible voters who are limited to say $100 which is tax credit and can be used for any politician, party, or campaign the individual chooses. That would provide equal representation.

I'd also like to see instant-runoff elections.

Isn't there a Simms game where the player sets up a government and tries to manage the results? Such a game would be interesting.

I also think fines and bail should be based on income.

Well where I come from they are set in accordance with the severity of the crime and whether there is a likelihood that you may not front the court on the day your case is to be heard. That is my understanding of our legal system.

That's the way it is here. Available money isn't taken into account. I don't think someone on disability should have the same fine of $450 for running a red light as a millionaire. The same for bail. $100K isn't the same for someone with an annual income of $60K as it is for someone with $900K.

With taxes I forgot to mention that my views on pay. To provide a living wage to the lowest paid requires that there is an upper limit on the highest paid wages. My view is that the highest paid wage earner pay is 22 times the lowest paid worker. 

So having a flat rate tax would give an incentive those on lower pay rates to improve themselves to compete for a higher paying job. 

But I also stated "or it could be incremental according to what the society desires with fairness in mind." 

What I see in the present tax systems the rich being able to claim items for deductions that the lower paid workers cannot claim. By removing the deductions you create a more equitable tax system. If you had a kid in a private school can you claim a deduction for the kids education?

Can you claim entertainment expenses incurred to earn you income? Plus there are a whole raft of deductions that low income earners cannot claim but the rich can. 

Why should the ordinary tax payer pay for companies to advertise, entertain, clean their establishments, repair their establishments? Can you?

Business is a risk and should the tax payer cover their bets? Because that is what tax deductions do!! It actually is a disincentive to really run your business 100% efficiently because by clever legal ( though at times some are barely legal )accounting methods.

In Australia property tax is raised and set by the state governments not the federal government.

Luxury goods sales tax is an item belonging to the sales taxes imposed by the states. 

I come from a country where unions are run slightly different to the unions where you live.

Unions also in concert with the employers to provide training for their members so that the employers have a steady pool of skilled tradespeople and skilled non-tradespeople to carry out the work done in each industry. The unions train the apprentices and trainees and find employment with an employer both while they are apprentices or trainee and when they become tradesman or craftsman or according to their qualifications for non-tradespeople.

Doing it this way the colleges and technical colleges are run by the state government but the curriculum being set by unions and employers as they have better idea of the skills that will be required so can begin training the required skills earlier.

There is a unintentional but good side effect of the unions finding placement of its members is that the federal government will not need an unemployment department. Government downsizing!

In a democracy everyone that reaches majority has the right to vote, so everyone that reaches majority becomes a eligible voter.

I come from a country that practices compulsory voting and you only have to apply once to be placed on the electoral role then there after all you do is when you change you address notify the electoral office and the electoral office changes the electorate roll that you belong to the one that your address belongs in, that is if your new address belongs in another electorate. Also because we do not elect a president so we don't have a run-off elections.

In the U.S. the highest paid worker make 400X their average employee. It's disgusting. I think employees working for a company that pays dividends should automatically receive stock shares making them part owners.

Check out this web site and documentary.


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