Comment

Comment by Neal on October 29, 2011 at 11:41am

Well, wish I could help you with that intelligent response thing. =)

Gun to their head is an apt analogy; welcome to hell bitches! 

Comment by Ivan C. Wiegand on October 28, 2011 at 4:51pm

Hopefully shifting from a box-oriented culture...

Love this analogy! I'll definitely have to remember this one :) Thanks! It's really nice to be part of a group where I can express my opinions and actually have intelligent responses! I'm not surrounded by a lot of free-thinkers.

Comment by Michel on October 28, 2011 at 4:22pm

Hopefully shifting from a box-oriented culture (you're either in a box or out of it in another box and can only grow your box at the expense of others) to a pole-oriented culture (you can be nearer a pole and farther from other ones and you can bring poles together.)

Comment by Michel on October 28, 2011 at 3:48pm

I don't think that many people are really capable of that level of faith.

Isn't self-delusion the essence of the thing?
Plus there's a feedback loop here: part of the belief is that faith cannot be perfect and must therefore be constantly reinforced. That keeps them busy and focused on their level of faith. All the while being pulled forward by the increasing lack of results of their faithfulness. Sucked by a vacuum as it were.

Comment by Adriana on October 28, 2011 at 3:40pm

I see your point now. You do have a point :-)

And yes, religion would not survive without fear. Mostly fear of death being the end.And it's true, as a scientist I'm not afraid of uncertainty or of saying "I don't know". But most religious people thrive in their "certainties". They call that faith, but I think you're right, it may be a misuse of the term. They use it as "trust" and not as "a belief in the absence of evidence."

Many people love to be told what to do. This way they don't have to make an effort.

Comment by Ivan C. Wiegand on October 28, 2011 at 3:24pm

That's the thing, though. No justification is needed. Saying "I just know it's true," is counter to what the word faith means. Faith is action without knowledge. Faith isn't just a way to support what you "know.' It's denying completely what is or isn't known and acting on a feeling. That's why I question anyone who claims to have faith in a creator. I don't think that many people are really capable of that level of faith. Penn Jillette just wrote a book called "Go, No!" and it's about just that. I think what most people call faith is really just fear. Many of us have woken up and are not afraid to say, "I don't know," and move on. We live in a fear-based culture where 10,000 years ago religion was created to control people. They didn't call it religion back then but it was the seed that eventually led to the dogma. Religion isn't and has never been about personal growth. It has always been about creating fear so people will stop thinking and just obey. It's worked well for about 10k years. The hippie movement of the 60's was one of the first signs of a shift away from fear-based culture where leadership is less important that empowered individuals working together. Fear won that battle back then. I think the Occupy Wall Street movement might be a similar push towards letting go of that fear and starting to see that we don't need to be told what to do all the time for things to work. Leadership is bullshit.

Comment by Adriana on October 28, 2011 at 3:02pm

Interestingly, I've met many Christians (mostly Catholics), who very skillfully have expressed exactly that: "I don't need proofs, I have my faith, I just know it is true".

In reality I think that what is happening is that whether the religious like it or not, the whole society is trending towards putting an emphasis on reason, so they fall in the trap and attempt to explain why they're being justified in believing what they believe.

Comment by Michel on October 28, 2011 at 2:37pm

At one point, every creationist has to just fall back on "it's just what I believe."

Often adding "which is the same as your belief in science" thus inducing a debate-killing facepalm.